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BargainsandFun & Barbarians PA evolution ideas

Started by Shenanigans , Apr 11 2010 04:06 AM

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#1

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Let's start the discussion =) :lurk5:
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#2

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So I might have missed it Barbarian but I am curious who has to pay the deductible when a user has to try and get their money back from the insurance company?

#3

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I spoke with Jeremiah for a while tonight, and I doubt any assurance/insurance company can prove the real end-user protection his idea can.

I still want to hear Barbarian's side, and talk about those merits.
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#4

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So I might have missed it Barbarian but I am curious who has to pay the deductible when a user has to try and get their money back from the insurance company?


I honestly don't know the answer to your question. Discussions with Lloyds and other insurance groups are ongoing as we speak. As I mentioned in one of my other posts, I am not the one who is orchestrating this approach to insurance nor am I leading the discussions on it, It is being dealt with in Europe where it was originated. I will let everyone know how it all plays out as soon as I know.
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#5

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I spoke with Jeremiah for a while tonight, and I doubt any assurance/insurance company can prove the real end-user protection his idea can.

I still want to hear Barbarian's side, and talk about those merits.


Not being that well versed on insurance Nick, all I can do is repeat what I said in my other post to Jeremiah which in its condensed form is...

The reason for insurance is plain and simple, it gives comfort and the feeling of safety to the paying PA customer. In the event the PA goes out of business, they have somewhere to go to be made whole again. I think everyone would agree that if it ever comes to pass, It sure is better than what they have now. Under this insurance scenario, the User/Bidder has full recourse in the event of PA failure.

If a penny auction goes out of business, it won't be just one individual who suffers a loss. Their customers will collectively be making a fairly sizable claim, it won’t be just the cost of bids that they will have to reimburse on, it will also be the unshipped items whose value can reach into the thousands of dollars.


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#6

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I spoke with Jeremiah for a while tonight, and I doubt any assurance/insurance company can prove the real end-user protection his idea can.

I still want to hear Barbarian's side, and talk about those merits.


I am also "privy" to Jeremiah's concept and I agree....although there are still kinks to work out, but I have no doubt he will get er done :)

I can't imagine the insurance option working without being WAY too expensive. I am certainly not opposed to the thought, at base, I just can't see how it would get done at a price that would make it reasonable to start-up or smaller PA sites.

#7

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I am also "privy" to Jeremiah's concept and I agree....although there are still kinks to work out, but I have no doubt he will get er done :)

I can't imagine the insurance option working without being WAY too expensive. I am certainly not opposed to the thought, at base, I just can't see how it would get done at a price that would make it reasonable to start-up or smaller PA sites.


Its good to know that you are keeping an open mind, it shows that you are not set in your ways. Rightly or wrongly, here is how I envision the cost factor being justified... For purposes of discussion, lets assume for a moment that an insurance policy is already in place. It was a relatively easy descision for them to issue a policy, considering the premium rich PA market which includes Europe, North America and other countries.

Considering also the sheer numbers of existing PA auctions that are presently operating on both sides of the continent. The Policy premiums would be amortized accross them with a margin of error already calculated in for such things as the atrition rate, growth rate and for those PA owners who simply don't wish to take part. If we are to continue to assume that a policy has been issued for a moment longer, then I am sure that the insurance actuaries will have already figured out the pros and cons before getting involved.

Lets also cover the BUSINESS of BUSINESS for a moment. From what I can gather, you run a very nice operation, this is due in part because you are a very astute and capable businessman/woman, sorry I don't know your real name. However, not everyone has your capabilities and business acumen, hence the saying, "people in business are not necessarily business people". The insurance company, is also very aware of this fact accross a wide variety of fields.

This may mean, that they will look at companies like your's, Swoopo, Bid Cactus, Mine (seat) Bargainsandfun and several other ones who have set up a sound PA model and use those companies as the standard bearers of how the rest of the industry should function at least from an insurance companies point of view. Again, None of this has yet come to pass, I am just giving you my take on it.

When all is said and done, if the customers are not protected, then more Bellas will make themselves known. I for one am very happy that she did speak up the way she did. I don't know if you will agree with me on this or not, but i think that very soon, we will experience abrupt and major changes in the industry, (for the better ) especially better for those who are willing to adjust their operations, for sure, things cannot be allowed to continue as they are. As a businessman, I truly am amazed at why many PA Owners are resistant to accepting the fact that the existing PA model as it was originated by Swoopo has flaws in it.
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#8

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I spoke with Jeremiah for a while tonight, and I doubt any assurance/insurance company can prove the real end-user protection his idea can.


I'm glad you feel that it will do what it is planned to do and look forward to when I can unveil "The Beast" in its entirety.

I am also "privy" to Jeremiah's concept and I agree....although there are still kinks to work out, but I have no doubt he will get er done :)


Trust me - Until I have everything ready things will continually keep morphing and changing. Many of the ideas we discussed when I initially presented it to you are still the same but some of the other smaller details have been changed.


My Goal with this concept/idea/brainstorm is that it will make a happy/safe bidding experience for users as well as provide a much needed traffic boost to some of the smaller PA's and startup PA's.

#9

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While I can get most likely surmise the context of this discussion from the first several posts, would someone be willing to write a short (or long, if Barbarian writes it ;) ) synopsis of the 'BargainsandFun & Barbarians PA evolution ideas' are, exactly (a cursory search did not provide yield anything of associated value)?

I have been lurking on these forums for the past several days, have been over many, many posts, but have not (this far) run across the originating post or idea.

Also, as this is my first post to this lovely forum, I might as well introduce myself informally (I shall formally introduce myself in the respective sub-forum) - This seems to be an unnaturally friendly place, and I look forward to being a part of it!

#10

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While I can get most likely surmise the context of this discussion from the first several posts, would someone be willing to write a short (or long, if Barbarian writes it ;) ) synopsis of the 'BargainsandFun & Barbarians PA evolution ideas' are, exactly (a cursory search did not provide yield anything of associated value)?

I have been lurking on these forums for the past several days, have been over many, many posts, but have not (this far) run across the originating post or idea.

Also, as this is my first post to this lovely forum, I might as well introduce myself informally (I shall formally introduce myself in the respective sub-forum) - This seems to be an unnaturally friendly place, and I look forward to being a part of it!


The discussion started in this thread:
http://www.pennyauct...45526#post45526
Barbarian has posted about this insurance model in a few places on the board. Jeremiah has just started talking about it, after thinking about all the details that need to get worked out over the last month or so.

Maybe both plans will get adopted, maybe neither, but the discussion is a good one to have.
DO WHAT'S RIGHT, NOT WHAT'S EASY

#11

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The discussion started in this thread:
http://www.pennyauct...45526#post45526
Barbarian has posted about this insurance model in a few places on the board. Jeremiah has just started talking about it, after thinking about all the details that need to get worked out over the last month or so.

Maybe both plans will get adopted, maybe neither, but the discussion is a good one to have.


Thank you -- I suppose the reason I missed it is because there are only references to "an idea" while the idea itself has not been fully presented.

Barbarian is suggesting a form of insurance that PA owners would buy, which in turn would protect the bidders on that site, should the PA go under, or 'run off to Mexico.'

Barbarian, because I wasn't able to find it in the other thread, can you explain who holds the policy, and who pays for the premium? Is it held/paid for the the PA Owner, or by the bidders?

I have as of yet no idea what Jeremiah is suggesting, though it seems to be more of a paradigm shift than anything else. Could you possibly give me some more details?

#12

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Jeremiah will at the end of the week or sometime around then when he said he'll be done and ready to announce.
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#13

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I understand it is against forum policy to provide contact details, so could you provide me with a site that you own, so that I may contact you off-site?

e: directed at Shenanigans
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#14

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Thank you -- I suppose the reason I missed it is because there are only references to "an idea" while the idea itself has not been fully presented.

Barbarian is suggesting a form of insurance that PA owners would buy, which in turn would protect the bidders on that site, should the PA go under, or 'run off to Mexico.'

Barbarian, because I wasn't able to find it in the other thread, can you explain who holds the policy, and who pays for the premium? Is it held/paid for the the PA Owner, or by the bidders?

I have as of yet no idea what Jeremiah is suggesting, though it seems to be more of a paradigm shift than anything else. Could you possibly give me some more details?


I don't have any idea about Jeremiah's idea either. If it is better than the insurance approach that's great because when all is said and done, the object of the excercise is to protect the bidder. I don't care who comes up with the best approach. As Shenanigans said, maybe both approaches will be used.

With regard to your insurance question, (who pays the premium) Unless something changes in the meantime, The premiums will be paid by the auction owner through their registration with the IAOPAO (International Association Of Penny Auction Owners).

IAOPAO will be the policy holder who will instruct the Insurance company who to pay any claims to. Those PA's that are presently registered members of the organization have agreed to submit the premium amount once it has been established, which the insurance company has indicated won't be that much. For those who are not association members yet, they will have to pay their association fees plus the insurance premium fees, which collectively will still be a very manageable sum.

If a site goes under for whatever reason, then those people who have been financially injured will be able to submit a claim through the IAOPAO. The insurance company has already said that they do not wish to deal with every individual claimant. IAOPAO will serve that purpose which will be done through an insurance claim form completed by the PA customer who will furnish proper evidence supporting their claim.

Edited by Barbarian, 12 April 2010 - 08:50 PM.

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#15

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I understand it is against forum policy to provide contact details, so could you provide me with a site that you own, so that I may contact you off-site?

e: directed at Shenanigans


Are you famillier with my site name? if not, maybe Shenanigans will be kind enough to give it to you.
If I can't take it with me, then I am not going.

#16

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I understand it is against forum policy to provide contact details, so could you provide me with a site that you own, so that I may contact you off-site?

e: directed at Shenanigans


Excellent TBD! I have added to your reputation as it is very refreshing to see someone, especially a new someone, that actually pays attention to the rules! :smile:

#17

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While I'm here....Barbarian, I see that you just dropped by. Thanks for the kind words that you posted earlier. I will continue to watch this thread and see how these discussions evolve.

#18

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I understand it is against forum policy to provide contact details, so could you provide me with a site that you own, so that I may contact you off-site?

e: directed at Shenanigans


Sure,
www.DickTravisConstruction.com

I cannot comment on anything Jeremiah has told me, but he seems pretty open about it if you talk to him in private. You can email him through BargainsAndFun.com.

+1 for reading the rules
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#19

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I don't have any idea about Jeremiah's idea either. If it is better than the insurance approach that's great because when all is said and done, the object of the excercise is to protect the bidder. I don't care who comes up with the best approach. As Shenanigans said, maybe both approaches will be used.

With regard to your insurance question, (who pays the premium) Unless something changes in the meantime, The premiums will be paid by the auction owner through their registration with the IAOPAO (International Association Of Penny Auction Owners).

IAOPAO will be the policy holder who will instruct the Insurance company who to pay any claims to. Those PA's that are presently registered members of the organization have agreed to submit the premium amount once it has been established, which the insurance company has indicated won't be that much. For those who are not association members yet, they will have to pay their association fees plus the insurance premium fees, which collectively will still be a very manageable sum.

If a site goes under for whatever reason, then those people who have been financially injured will be able to submit a claim through the IAOPAO. The insurance company has already said that they do not wish to deal with every individual claimant. IAOPAO will serve that purpose which will be done through an insurance claim form completed by the PA customer who will furnish proper evidence supporting their claim.


Thank you for the explanation, Barbarian. And yes, I already have the info for your PA, thanks.

If you would permit me, I'd like to play devils advocate for a moment.

First, as I wasn't able to find any mention of the IAOPAO save on this site, does the IAOPAO already exist, or will be formed as a result of this plan?

I was also unable to tell from your description whether or not the premium would be an ongoing fee, be that monthly, bi-annually or what have you. I assume for the sake of argument that it will be a monthly fee, as I don't know of any insurance agency that would accept a one-time payment for ongoing services.

If that assumption is true, do the users of a covered PA continue to be covered when the PA owner does not pay the premium for an existing plan, and if so, for how long?

My point being, the two main reasons for buying the insurance are against either a dishonest PA owner, or against the financial breakdown of the PA, and in both of these cases, the premium prior to the 'exit' of the PA owner is likely to be unpaid. A struggling PA owner will be unable, and in most cases unwilling, knowing he's in a sinking ship, to pay the premium, and the dishonest PA owner would be unwilling, as there is no further benefit offered by the perceived 'safety' that the insurance provided.

If my assumptions are incorrect, I do apologize -- I may have missed information in the previous thread (there was, you'll agree, a lot going on in there.) If they are not, however, then I must agree with Jeremiah, in that this system would help facilitate dishonest PA owners, and not offer any real benefit to end-users regardless of the reason for the PAs downfall.

Please understand that I am not attacking you personally, nor even your idea -- I am merely pointing to what I perceive as weak points, which could be based on incorrect assumptions on my behalf. I ask that you take this with the (intended) respectful tone in which it was written. I look forward to either your rebuttal or agreement, so we may continue to move toward a safer environment for bidders and owners alike.

#20

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Thank you for the explanation, Barbarian. And yes, I already have the info for your PA, thanks.

If you would permit me, I'd like to play devils advocate for a moment.

First, as I wasn't able to find any mention of the IAOPAO save on this site, does the IAOPAO already exist, or will be formed as a result of this plan?

I was also unable to tell from your description whether or not the premium would be an ongoing fee, be that monthly, bi-annually or what have you. I assume for the sake of argument that it will be a monthly fee, as I don't know of any insurance agency that would accept a one-time payment for ongoing services.

If that assumption is true, do the users of a covered PA continue to be covered when the PA owner does not pay the premium for an existing plan, and if so, for how long?

My point being, the two main reasons for buying the insurance are against either a dishonest PA owner, or against the financial breakdown of the PA, and in both of these cases, the premium prior to the 'exit' of the PA owner is likely to be unpaid. A struggling PA owner will be unable, and in most cases unwilling, knowing he's in a sinking ship, to pay the premium, and the dishonest PA owner would be unwilling, as there is no further benefit offered by the perceived 'safety' that the insurance provided.

If my assumptions are incorrect, I do apologize -- I may have missed information in the previous thread (there was, you'll agree, a lot going on in there.) If they are not, however, then I must agree with Jeremiah, in that this system would help facilitate dishonest PA owners, and not offer any real benefit to end-users regardless of the reason for the PAs downfall.

Please understand that I am not attacking you personally, nor even your idea -- I am merely pointing to what I perceive as weak points, which could be based on incorrect assumptions on my behalf. I ask that you take this with the (intended) respectful tone in which it was written. I look forward to either your rebuttal or agreement, so we may continue to move toward a safer environment for bidders and owners alike.



TBD, You raise some excellent points, and may I also compliment you on your approach in which you raised these points, thank you. Now I will attempt to answer you as best I can.

Yes the IAOPAO already exists and is newly formed, it was originated in the UK and is now expanding into North America. I am the individual who is in charge of the NA side of the association. Whatever the insurance premium works out to be, (I will keep everyone updated as I find out myself).

I can tell you that it will be due and payable every six months and yes it will be ongoing. To answer the second part of your question, which I am sure will in fact happen the way you have outlined it, the following procedures will take place... Any PA as I stated above, will be paying their premiums six months in advance, five months into their coverage, they will be sent an invoice for the upcoming 6 month period. If they do not submit their premium, before or by the end of their six month term of coverage, they will receive a notification that their coverage is about to be terminated. I will let you know if the insurance company allows any grace period. Sorry but I don't have that answer at present. To continue,...

IAOPAO will require that each PA Owner publish their membership in the IAOPAO on their site in a prominent location on their home page. (SEAL) The PA Owner will send a notification to its existing members that they are now an IAOPAO member and carry the appropriate insurance to protect its membership in the event of business failure. Anyone newly registering into that particular site for the first time, will plainly see within the sites registration form, that the site is insured for their protection.

Withinn the PA sites registration form will be a section describing the sites insurance participation which will also provide a section for the applicant to acknowledge that they understand and agree with the insurance requirements, the registration form will also contain a direct link to the IAOPAO website in the section dealing with the insurance requirements as it pertains to their membership.

In that requirements section, they (the applicant) will be notified that it is their responsibility to regularly check on the IAOPAO web site (being created) to view the list of all PA sites who have been cited for violations that could put them at risk. Vis a vis, the list would contain this exampled message.... XYZ Penny Auction is in violation of the terms of insurance regarding unpaid premiums and as of XXXX Date will no longer be under any insurance protections as it pertains to the protection of its members, please govern yourself accordingly. The method I described above ensures that there will not be any lapse in coverage before the PA member/bidder has been notified by the association.

Through the above method, it gives every member of that particular PA or auctions if they are members of multiple sites, the option of continuing with them or moving to a site who is insured and not in violation. This is what I was referring to in one of my earlier posts when I said in effect, By being insured, the penny Auction owner will experience a boost in membership, if they elect not to be insured, (its optional), they could possibly notice a decrease in membership. I hope this effectively answers your questions. Highlited/bold text was added through the edit feature.

Edited by Barbarian, 13 April 2010 - 03:43 AM.

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