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Started by dss@pw , Oct 08 2010 02:51 PM

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#21

candy
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@B2W-Hate to admit it, but I agree with most of what you're saying. :)

There are some names on that site, which have previously been alleged to be involved in collusion. If they're the real people behind those names, then this gentleman does have a potential collusion situation.

With respect to "bidders who only bid if they can steal the item"--they're everywhere. I think they play just as important a role as the bidders who win all the ipads, ipods, game systems and laptops. Albeit, they don't contribute as much to the site financially as the big winners, they play a role.

As for tagging...agreed--it has become a standard and, frankly, I prefer it. I prefer knowing who I'm gonna have to fight with, before the fight has begun and especially before I'm deeply comitted to an auction. Tagging is not a bad thing, but implicit agreements, by means of outside communication, are a problem.

"There are many bidder that are cheering you on of which some of these bidders would never consider paying retail for an auction item infact they complain about the PB's that will." --this is a little over-stated...I really don't think there's anything wrong with a bidder who has no desire to go to retail. Don't all of us come to these sites looking for a deal? If people want to pay retail, just got to a retailer...sort of destroys the whole penny model, doesn't it? If they have the fortitude to stop when they've reached their pre-set limit, then kudos to them. Alot of us could save alot of $$$ if we just put the brakes on once in awhile (myself included).

The over-stated part..."...they complain about PB's that will." (go to retail) I think they complain about PB's that will pay 3x, 4x and 5x retail, not just go to retail. I think they complain about PB's that will go 3x retail to win the 100th ipad of their bidding career. I think they complain because they perceive that even if they wanted to take on one of the PB's, they fear retribution for legitimate competition. The dynamic of big fish/little fish is not so simple in the penny world, IMHO. I'm not saying these folks are right, just saying it goes slightly deeper than your assertion.

Now, the part I'd like to contribute to this dialogue, and it is strictly speculation and opinion...

to dssATpw (sorry the "@" makes it look like an email in my post)--What I have seen as the demise of some penny sites, not all, is the following:

1. Allowing bidders to exchange their wins for bids at retail price. This may seem like a good idea up front, but it does little to even the playing field and, frankly, it creates an uneven playing field. I use 3 bids to bid on a $25 gift card that I know no one is interested in and then exchange that 3 bid investment for 50 bids (just a hypothetical). Meanwhile, the unwitting bidders who are bidding wildly on the 50 bid pack, did not know they were able to exchange their wins for bids. I'm not saying you're doing this, but if it has been proposed to you by any of your bidders, that should be a red flag.

2. Allowing bidders to exchange the $50 toilet store gift card for the $50 electronics superstore gift card (or worse yet, paypal cash). Again, not saying it's happening, but if it has been proposed to you, that should be a red flag. Whatever is advertised in the auction, should be the product awarded, unless you have a clearly stated exchange policy in your T&C or in the auction description. Certain bidders will scoop up the unpopular auctions, knowing that they can exchange them for the popular items or for paypal cash. If it's not clearly stated somewhere, it's unfair to those who were not privvy to the exchange.

3. Giving away free bids, which are not available to all users. Again, not saying you're doing this, just pointing it out. If theres a SNAFU and you give the victim bidder some bids for the SNAFU, that's different, but when bids are being offered merely as a reward for participcation, they should be available to all bidders. If bidders are begging you for free bids for pointing things out or making suggestions, this should be a red flag.

If any of your "whales" fall into the above categories, then I believe you're on the right path with restricting them or cutting off their perks. If they do not, then perhaps a little growth will spur more competition (as B2W said).

OK, I've rambled enough. Best of luck to you!! My experience so far has been great. I won an auction yesterday and received a shipping notice within hours of the auction's end. Kudo's to you pennywarriors for that!! woot


What is your definition of Collusion? *huh*

As far as exchanging a win for bids, I must disagree. Why is this a "Red Flag?" The PA's who do offer bids in exchange for wins, are not suffering for it. No need to worry about PayPal cash exchanges. lol I seriously doubt if this is an option you will ever see on Warriors.

And lastly, as far as the "Whales" on Warriors... there are win limits in place. You have to work around that, if you aren't willing to battle a Whale. From what I have observed so far, it is the Whales who are contributing the most to the financial success of Warriors.

If it is imperative to cut off the Whale's perks, then perhaps new win limits should be considered for everyone, not just the Whales. One win a day should take care of the Whale's, the Jumpers & the Bidders who complain if they don't win for a couple of cents.

Lastly, as far as exchanges... I see nothing wrong with asking a PA to exchange one Gas Card, for another one that is available in their area. Same would be true of the Grocery Store Gift Cards, etc. There has to be balance... Extremes in either direction will not keep a PA at the top of the list.

Happy Bidding to All! woot

#22

IceDragon
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I am sorry but I agree with DSS. There is certain names who in fact do, and have admitted to a certain collusion ring. It was proven without a shadow of a doubt until they got caught. Now it should be believed it won't happen again? I call BS. As the old saying goes once a cheater always a cheater.And for those of you pretending to be naive to the situation all you have to do is search ended auctions and see the proof. None of the fore-mentioned bidders have bid against each other. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. Also to say that those such people are providing a good resource the sites? Take a look at all the other ones who let it continue. I do not need to mention site names as most of you have already made threads about money troubles and shipping not going out. My quote for the day " If you stop the game before it's played you are less likely to lose"
Does it matter who I am?

#23

caveninit
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What is your definition of Collusion? *huh*

As far as exchanging a win for bids, I must disagree. Why is this a "Red Flag?" The PA's who do offer bids in exchange for wins, are not suffering for it. No need to worry about PayPal cash exchanges. lol I seriously doubt if this is an option you will ever see on Warriors.

And lastly, as far as the "Whales" on Warriors... there are win limits in place. You have to work around that, if you aren't willing to battle a Whale. From what I have observed so far, it is the Whales who are contributing the most to the financial success of Warriors.

If it is imperative to cut off the Whale's perks, then perhaps new win limits should be considered for everyone, not just the Whales. One win a day should take care of the Whale's, the Jumpers & the Bidders who complain if they don't win for a couple of cents.

Lastly, as far as exchanges... I see nothing wrong with asking a PA to exchange one Gas Card, for another one that is available in their area. Same would be true of the Grocery Store Gift Cards, etc. There has to be balance... Extremes in either direction will not keep a PA at the top of the list.

Happy Bidding to All! woot


Great post Candy

#24

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Thanks caveninit :)

I just wish someone would explain this to me: bulb

If I bid against someone I am familiar with or someone I even happen to know, that would be collusion, correct? Now, if I don't bid against someone I am familiar with or happen to know, then I am in a group that colludes?

I am by no means a Whale, unless Beached Whales count, so I am not here to defend PB's. I would love for anyone to post about just ONE PA that does not have members who chose not to bid against other certain members. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out... Just a little observation time. Has anyone noticed that the "groups" vary from PA to PA? Apparently there are a lotta "groups" in PA land.

Also, why do PA's have Referral Programs? Refer a FRIEND! Say what? A FRIEND??? Perhaps we need to change that to "Refer a Stranger." woot

Tag teaming and collusion are bad & this does need to be monitored by the PA owners. The last time I was colluded against, 2 friends were bidding against me in the same auction... taking turns to discourage me from bidding, so it would drop to one of them. That does affect the outcome of an auction and all this time, I thought that was what collusion was??? :o

Ok, let the beatings begin! :smilielol5:

#25

nixnutz7897
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What is your definition of Collusion? *huh*


Entering into agreements via facebook, email or other means where users agree not to bid against each other...sound familiar? I'm not talking about CHOOSING not to bid against someone based on reputation, a fondness for their bidding style, cute username, whatever...I'm talking about people who have been proven to have sought out other people's emails, contacted those people and attempted to enter into an agreement to not bid against one another....is that definition more clear? Forgive me for trying to be concise and for not wanting to list specific usernames in my first post.

As far as exchanging a win for bids, I must disagree. Why is this a "Red Flag?" The PA's who do offer bids in exchange for wins, are not suffering for it.


Ask BittyBidz how that worked out for them. They won't suffer in the short run, but over the long haul, a select group of bidders will build a cache of bids, which can be used to pound/drive off newbie bidders. They'll begin to win prizes for pennies on the dollar, without buying any bids. How does that help the site? I don't have a problem with bid exchanges, as long as they are disclosed to everyone, either in the T&C or in the auction itself.

And lastly, as far as the "Whales" on Warriors... there are win limits in place. You have to work around that, if you aren't willing to battle a Whale. From what I have observed so far, it is the Whales who are contributing the most to the financial success of Warriors.


I agree, unless that "whale" is using a cache of bids that were not purchased or won via a bid pack auction.

If it is imperative to cut off the Whale's perks, then perhaps new win limits should be considered for everyone, not just the Whales. One win a day should take care of the Whale's, the Jumpers & the Bidders who complain if they don't win for a couple of cents.


"Perks"=benefits available solely to certain bidders. I thought I said clearly that IF these things are occurring, they should be cut off...ie. allowing certain bidders to exchange won items for bids, allowing ridiculous exchanges on gift cards, and giving away free bids which are not available to the entire group. Guess I wasn't clear enough in my post...my apologies.

Lastly, as far as exchanges... I see nothing wrong with asking a PA to exchange one Gas Card, for another one that is available in their area. Same would be true of the Grocery Store Gift Cards, etc. There has to be balance... Extremes in either direction will not keep a PA at the top of the list.


and what you've given as an example, in support of your assertion, is extreme in that it is the least heinous of any exchange. I don't think anyone would have a problem with exchanging one gas card (ie BP for Citgo) for one that is in your area. I thought using the "toilet store" GC and "electronics superstore" GC would establish my point without insulting any retailers, but clearly it hasn't....

I have personally experienced penny sites, which have allowed certain bidders to do exchanges. You win a $25 iTunes card, but you email the site admin (after the auction ends for .04) and they let you exchange it for a $25 Amazon card. I don't have a problem with it, if the exchange is stated for all potential bidders to see in the auction somewhere, but when it's after-the-fact and it's not available to ALL bidders, that's when it's a problem, in my humble opinion...a bidder asking for just such an exchange, should be red flag to the site owner and should not be allowed, unless that exchange was available and clearly stated for all bidders during the auction, imho.

Happy Bidding to All! woot


and happy bidding to you too! :)

#26

candy
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Entering into agreements via facebook, email or other means where users agree not to bid against each other...sound familiar? I'm not talking about CHOOSING not to bid against someone based on reputation, a fondness for their bidding style, cute username, whatever...I'm talking about people who have been proven to have sought out other people's emails, contacted those people and attempted to enter into an agreement to not bid against one another....is that definition more clear? Forgive me for trying to be concise and for not wanting to list specific usernames in my first post.



Ask BittyBidz how that worked out for them. They won't suffer in the short run, but over the long haul, a select group of bidders will build a cache of bids, which can be used to pound/drive off newbie bidders. They'll begin to win prizes for pennies on the dollar, without buying any bids. How does that help the site? I don't have a problem with bid exchanges, as long as they are disclosed to everyone, either in the T&C or in the auction itself.



I agree, unless that "whale" is using a cache of bids that were not purchased or won via a bid pack auction.



"Perks"=benefits available solely to certain bidders. I thought I said clearly that IF these things are occurring, they should be cut off...ie. allowing certain bidders to exchange won items for bids, allowing ridiculous exchanges on gift cards, and giving away free bids which are not available to the entire group. Guess I wasn't clear enough in my post...my apologies.



and what you've given as an example, in support of your assertion, is extreme in that it is the least heinous of any exchange. I don't think anyone would have a problem with exchanging one gas card (ie BP for Citgo) for one that is in your area. I thought using the "toilet store" GC and "electronics superstore" GC would establish my point without insulting any retailers, but clearly it hasn't....

I have personally experienced penny sites, which have allowed certain bidders to do exchanges. You win a $25 iTunes card, but you email the site admin (after the auction ends for .04) and they let you exchange it for a $25 Amazon card. I don't have a problem with it, if the exchange is stated for all potential bidders to see in the auction somewhere, but when it's after-the-fact and it's not available to ALL bidders, that's when it's a problem, in my humble opinion...a bidder asking for just such an exchange, should be red flag to the site owner and should not be allowed, unless that exchange was available and clearly stated for all bidders during the auction, imho.



and happy bidding to you too! :)


I don't think BittyBidz's downfall was due to exchanging wins for bids. If a PA offers an exchange of bids for win, EVERY member would have that option, not just Whales, so if anything, wouldn't it drive UP the price of an auction?

#27

cantthinkofone
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I don't think BittyBidz's downfall was due to exchanging wins for bids. If a PA offers an exchange of bids for win, EVERY member would have that option, not just Whales, so if anything, wouldn't it drive UP the price of an auction?


Excuse me for "jumping", but I've just got to throw in my 2 cents here. The first time that I saw bid exchanges for items won my initial thought was that the site quite likely had just signed its own death certificate. Theoretically, within a fairly short time period, you could have a roster of bidders with a ton of bids and auctions with ending prices that are amongst the highest in the industry --- as wonderful as that sounds there is one major problem, all this could easily happen without that site ever selling another bid. Remember, upon scoping out the site for a minute or two, any new business would be totally discouraged about registering at site due to the relatively high closing price of auctions. The only realistic way out would be to attract new and naive business unaware of other sites --- problem is this requires significant advertising which costs money and due to lack of bid sales the site isn't generating any revenue, worst yet it is still having to ship out won items for those auctions where the bid exchange is not chosen.
Not a very attractive scenario.

Edited by cantthinkofone, 11 October 2010 - 05:59 PM.


#28

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Excuse me for "jumping", but I've just got to throw in my 2 cents here. The first time that I saw bid exchanges for items won my initial thought was that the site quite likely had just signed its own death certificate. Theoretically, within a fairly short time period, you could have a roster of bidders with a ton of bids and auctions with ending prices that are amongst the highest in the industry --- as wonderful as that sounds there is one major problem, all this could easily happen without that site ever selling another bid. Remember, upon scoping out the site for a minute or two, any new business would be totally discouraged about registering at site due to the relatively high closing price of auctions. The only realistic way out would be to attract new and naive business unaware of other sites --- problem is this requires significant advertising which costs money and due to lack of bid sales the site isn't generating any revenue, worst yet it is still having to ship out won items for those auctions where the bid exchange is not chosen.
Not a very attractive scenario.


In order for that to be the case, you would have members exchanging every win. :o What would be the point of playing? I play regularly on a few PA's that exchange wins for bids & some auctions go high & some go low. More low than high actually. I still buy bids also.

#29

nixnutz7897
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In order for that to be the case, you would have members exchanging every win. :o What would be the point of playing? I play regularly on a few PA's that exchange wins for bids & some auctions go high & some go low. More low than high actually. I still buy bids also.


Fair enough. I agree that as long as the exchange is advertised and offered for everyone, no problem. I'm more inclined to concur with what "cantthinkofone" offers. I have personally seen this selective exchange policy in action and watched it turn a mid-level bidder into an unbeatable force. All the while, I was unaware that I was able to exchange my wins for bids.

What"s worse is that this bidder was also a big force on BittyBidz, so I was putting 2 + 2 together...I may be completely wrong, but I really don"t think so.

I'm in a mind to agree to disagree :) , but I respect your position and can see what you're saying.

#30

nixnutz7897
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On a side note, I bid on that $50 Amazon beginner before I won my 3rd auction (embarassed). I emailed CS and asked them to delete my bid and they assured me it was OK. They said they would void the auction, if no one else bid, but my bid was lost forever. I'm fine with that :) Just don't want anyone thinking I'm trying to get over....not my intent.

#31

cantthinkofone
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In order for that to be the case, you would have members exchanging every win. :o What would be the point of playing? I play regularly on a few PA's that exchange wins for bids & some auctions go high & some go low. More low than high actually. I still buy bids also.


Bidders could keep item on 15 or 20% of auctions won and come out smelling like a rose. Why wouldn't you want to play given this scenario? Let's say you keep item on only 10% of won auctions, whether that amounts to monthly winnings kept with dollar value of $25 or $2,500, either way it is effectively free money ----- and more importantly it is risk-free winnings.

#32

candy
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Bidders could keep item on 15 or 20% of auctions won and come out smelling like a rose. Why wouldn't you want to play given this scenario? Let's say you keep item on only 10% of won auctions, whether that amounts to monthly winnings kept with dollar value of $25 or $2,500, either way it is effectively free money ----- and more importantly it is risk-free winnings.


If everyone has the same opportunity to exchange wins for bids, and it works for the PA (which it does) then I see no problem. The key is for everyone to be offered the same options. No under the table, deals, so to speak.

#33

Sodaman
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Go refer some strangers.woot That will create some competition. I think most people fear retaliation so they don't bid against friends, family, or people they recognize.

As for the exchanges for bids. PA owners can see that as a plus. Not having to buy the item and keep the cash. The bidder is actually buying more bids with the product they won. They could save up bids for what they really want to win and keep.
Drink in Moderation :-17-:

#34

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I have not had a chance to check out your site yet, but wanted to offer this view on stamping.

Sometimes stamping simply means, "Hey, unless something comes up, I'm planning to bid on this auction." For me, it feels better to put a bid in early rather than at the last second. Also, some sites have a 'My Auctions' list. On these sites I stamp so I can see everything I am interested in on one short list.

Stamping sometimes equals an attempt at bullying, but not always.

Refer A Stranger :smilielol5: I love it!

#35

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I have not had a chance to check out your site yet, but wanted to offer this view on stamping.

Sometimes stamping simply means, "Hey, unless something comes up, I'm planning to bid on this auction." For me, it feels better to put a bid in early rather than at the last second. Also, some sites have a 'My Auctions' list. On these sites I stamp so I can see everything I am interested in on one short list.

Stamping sometimes equals an attempt at bullying, but not always.

Refer A Stranger :smilielol5: I love it!


Sometimes by placing a bid on an auction (rare) hours or days prior you may just win with 1 bid if no one else comes back.. Also, just because a user bids on it doesn't mean they'll come back to bid when the auction has begun.

I believe that the more penny auction bidders that come together and post their honest experiences, exposing the shady-scam penny auction sites, the less and less shady-scam sites will stop being the majority in the penny auction industry. Stand with me.

Penny Auction News, Reviews, Directory & Discussion!
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To the Scam Artists: Enough is Enough


#36

rs9090
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If stamping is that big a deal how come so very few auctions end at 1bid?

#37

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I visited your site for the first time a few minutes ago. Anything that I would be interested in has been stamped by people I have lost a lot of money to on other sites. No point in even trying.

.

The auctions ending at $0.01 is not the issue. It's a group of the same bidders taking ownership of your site day-in-day-out and placing their names on all the merchandise up for auction. I may have 30 items up for auction but there may be (or was) 5 bidders names claiming those items. Visitors come to my site every day and see the same names and guess what, they leave without bidding,witness the above "comment". They have an agreement not to bid on each others merchandise. Now....at the end of the day bidders can do as they like. There is no law against this kind of activity. BUT likewise, there is no law about me prohibiting or limiting this kind of activity either. Like my mother used to say: "what's good for the goose, is good for the gander".

#38

nixnutz7897
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If stamping is that big a deal how come so very few auctions end at 1bid?


Hmmmm...good question:

BittyBidz
BittyBidz
BittyBidz
BittyBidz
BittyBidz
BittyBidz
BittyBidz
BittyBidz
BittyBidz
BittyBidz
BittyBidz
BittyBidz
BittyBidz
BittyBidz

And another new site where only few are dominating:

Prizes4Pennies.com
Prizes4Pennies.com
Prizes4Pennies.com
Prizes4Pennies.com
Prizes4Pennies.com
Prizes4Pennies.com
Prizes4Pennies.com
Prizes4Pennies.com
Prizes4Pennies.com
Prizes4Pennies.com
Prizes4Pennies.com
Prizes4Pennies.com
Prizes4Pennies.com
Prizes4Pennies.com
Prizes4Pennies.com
Prizes4Pennies.com
Prizes4Pennies.com

Another relatively new site w/ a select few dominating (some of these auctions start at 1cent, so a 2cent bid is the same as 1cent on other sites):

$10 Walmart e-gift card | Snagbidder
$25 Boca Java | Snagbidder
$25 Restaurant.com giftcard | Snagbidder
Kingston 4 GB Flash Memory Card | Snagbidder
$25 Restaurant.com giftcard | Snagbidder
$10 Amazon Gift Card (paypal cash available) | Snagbidder
$10 K-mart eGiftcard | Snagbidder
Pick a Gift Card $15 | Snagbidder (this one started at $1)
10 Bids Pack | Snagbidder
$5 Target E card | Snagbidder
$25 Variety Gift Card | Snagbidder
8GB HP USB Flash Drive | Snagbidder
$5 Target E card | Snagbidder
10 FREE BIDS | Snagbidder
$15 Pick your own gift card | Snagbidder (this one started @ $1.99)
$15 PayPal Cash | Snagbidder (started at 99cents)
Pick a Gift Card $15 | Snagbidder (started at 99cents)
Pick a Gift Card $15 | Snagbidder
$75 restaurant.com giftcard | Snagbidder
$15 Kohls Gift card | Snagbidder

Dibzees:

Dibzees!
Dibzees!
Dibzees!
Dibzees!
Dibzees!
Dibzees!
Dibzees!
http://www.dibzees.c...s/25bids0820102
Dibzees!
Dibzees!
Dibzees!
Dibzees!
Dibzees!
http://www.dibzees.c...ift Card 072610
Dibzees!
http://www.dibzees.c...s/bestbuy071610
Dibzees!
Dibzees!
Dibzees!

And PW's:

https://www.pennywarriors.com/auctions/view/899
https://www.pennywarriors.com/auctions/view/872
https://www.pennywar...</span></span>9

I'm sure I could find more....

#39

cantthinkofone
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.

The auctions ending at $0.01 is not the issue. It's a group of the same bidders taking ownership of your site day-in-day-out and placing their names on all the merchandise up for auction. I may have 30 items up for auction but there may be (or was) 5 bidders names claiming those items. Visitors come to my site every day and see the same names and guess what, they leave without bidding,witness the above "comment". They have an agreement not to bid on each others merchandise. Now....at the end of the day bidders can do as they like. There is no law against this kind of activity. BUT likewise, there is no law about me prohibiting or limiting this kind of activity either. Like my mother used to say: "what's good for the goose, is good for the gander".


PW, believe me, most everyone here knows what you are saying and knows you are correct, despite what their posts may say. They simply don't like the direction this is going....for obvious reasons. I think that you summed up the actions you should take and why very well: "what's good for the goose is good for the gander". In all likelihood, the real thing that is at stake here is simply your very survival.

#40

nixnutz7897
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.

The auctions ending at $0.01 is not the issue. It's a group of the same bidders taking ownership of your site day-in-day-out and placing their names on all the merchandise up for auction. I may have 30 items up for auction but there may be (or was) 5 bidders names claiming those items. Visitors come to my site every day and see the same names and guess what, they leave without bidding,witness the above "comment". They have an agreement not to bid on each others merchandise. Now....at the end of the day bidders can do as they like. There is no law against this kind of activity. BUT likewise, there is no law about me prohibiting or limiting this kind of activity either. Like my mother used to say: "what's good for the goose, is good for the gander".


Without mentioning names, have any of these bidders asked to exchange items for bids? Have they asked to exchange the won gift cards for different gift cards? Just curious, because I sincerely believe that these are symptoms of problems....




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