We are so grateful for comments from readers, thank you!
A reader left this comment on our last post about PennyGrabber.com:
“It is important to point out fact from fiction… Penny Grabber website is being developed by Digital Fruit. (Link removed by admin by request of digitalfruit, see comment on our last post on PennyGrabber)
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not here to sham, but fact is fact… All the above features mentioned by pennygrabber: AutoBidder, Cashback, 24h Auction, Fast Auction, Fixed Price Auction, Zero Auction, Bonus Auction and PennyGrab It Now, come practically standard or are options as is mentioned on the digitalfruit software page:http://www.digitalfruit.ee/Penny+Auction+Solution/id/57/
PennyGrabber is not bringing anything new to the pennyauction world… apart from the ’social’ side. and truthfully, would you like others to see you lose on an Auction? I would not. That is why psuedos are created for anonymity. If social was the way to go, swoopo would have implemented it along time ago, they have the means, the manpower and the research to know what is best and what is not. It is way to early to go social with this concept. But hey… this is my own personal opinion, we are all entitled to one, and I know that some visiting this page might disagree.
I noticed that their design (especially the icons + buttons) looks quite familiar to that of http://www.pennyauction.com.my/. Perhaps it is the same owners, or it is the same designer that did pennyauction.com.my meaning that pennyauction.com.my also uses the digitalfruit software?”
The source code for pennyauction.com.my looks similar to that of Pardoo.com’s, and we do know that Pardoo.com was developed by DigitalFruit.ee. PennyAuction.com.my could also be developed by Estonian Developer DigitalFruit.ee, we’ll see what else we can find out.
Just a freelance quote found from Google:
We want a full working penny auction site like www.digitalfruit.ee did for most impressive penny auction site, especially example www.pennyauction.com.my …
pro-freelance.com/tag/auction-site/
Take a look at the two screenshots: PennyGrabber.com & PennyAuction.com.MY (Malaysian Penny Auction)
Although we do not know whether or not PennyGrabber.com will use DigitalFruit’s (or whether PennyGrabber.com will indeed launch using DigitalFruit’s software) “Intelligent Investment Protector (IIP)”feature since they’ve not yet opened, we certainly hope they do not!
Yes, we can (and have) spot DigitalFruit.ee’s bots; the IIP is no match for PAWI ;).
DigitalFruit.ee on their Intelligent Investment Protector (IIP): Right from an e-mail from Olavi of Digitalfruit.ee:
(Edit 1-16-10 View screenshot of original e-mail from Olavi🙂
“Solution made for site owner protection for initial startup period where bidding level could be lower than expected. IIP tries to replicate human behaviour as closely as possible and making almost impossible to detect as bot.
There will be 2 main values for revenue control system:
- 1) BEP level (break-even point)
2) MAX level (Max plausible price) - There is big name pool for Internal bidders (its variable and can be changed by admin). Name pool is always compared against real users to escape situation where Internal and real users do have the same username. Name pool has no bidders amount limit.
- Max level will be used to escape product price rising suspiciously high. Those products can be put on auctions again. If max level is reached and last bidder is Internal bidder then it will be winner even if BEP level is not reached.
Internal bidders are taken from central “name pool” ~15 per every auction, at least 5 of them will be replaced in every 2 hours. (time is centrally adjustable). - To simulate real user behaviour Internal bidders make occasional bids before BEP level is reached, otherwise it will look very suspicious if bids from certain users are placed only on 0 time. Real and Internal players’ bids are kept in different tables to escape value mixup.
- IIP has 5 values what define how does it bid: Appearance (how often it will appear in specific auction) , Risk level (how aggressively its playing), Strategy (how often it will bid and how to follow other bidders), Stage (how often player will play in different auctions)
Price: starting from 1570 EUR” -From DigitalFruit.ee”
As we told you before, Investment Protection/autobidding bots/whatever you want to call it is STILL stealing. Notice how Digital Fruit repeatedly assures the purchaser that suspicious behavior will go undetected?
Like we said, we do not know whether or not PennyGrabber.com will be using a script from DigitalFruit.ee, nor do we know if they will turn on the IIP, but for their sake and all of ours, we certainly hope not!
Share your thoughts on PennyGrabber and DigitalFruit.ee
Thanks again to the reader who pointed this out.
That’s why online pharmacies is becoming more popular over the last years. Well-known are remedies which are used to reduce inflammation caused by inflammation of the skeletal muscle etc. There were only few examples. Did somebody tell you about canadian generic Viagra? Maybe you along know about the question. Sexual dysfunction can be a result of a physical condition. Even when it has a physical reason, psychological problems can make the disorder worse. Sex drive problems are so commonly a product of how you feel that there is some to that “headache” saying after all.
Comments on this entry are closed.
Olavi January 14, 2010, 10:24 am
Pointless really. Amanda Lee (that is your real name, isn't it?) has clearly "home field" advantage, language advantage and possibility to post/edit anything she likes on her own site. Regardless what I say, tell or show, you Amanda can show it any light you like. Also after little search in Internet I have found out your very questionable way to deal with different situation and info you have acquired. Don't bother to answer.
Olavi January 14, 2010, 10:56 am
What I really suggested for starters was open discussion, this is not open and its not discussion. And I clearly understand that its not going to happen never ever. This "game" is played by your terms. And please do search in Internet and finally answer all those questions I gave. And yes, final word is always yours as long as its your site …
auctionwatcher January 14, 2010, 11:06 am
This is an open discussion. What questions did you request I answer?
Regards
Olavi January 14, 2010, 11:22 am
No, this is not discussion, this is two people throwing to each other different objects and cleverly avoiding answers and direct questions. Oh, sorry. You did not ask any questions. I did. Please take a closer look (if you really have any time of course) and you will clearly see. And may I ask why have you not asked any questions so far? You know all? Silly me. You clearly do.
Oh, almost forgot to ask. Are you that Amanda Lee who has convictions for theft and forgery?
auctionwatcher January 14, 2010, 11:23 am
1. No, this is not personal. The purpose of this site is to expose bot/shill bidding practices being promoted by developers and used by penny auction startups.
Did you offend me? I'm sure you have offended more than just me with what you said in that e-mail about your IIP shill bots.
2. My name? Yes, I've already told you my name.
3. How much money am I making? Who cares? How much money are you making? I already answered this above*
Now answer my question:
You said: “Also after little search in Internet I have found out your very questionable way to deal with different situation and info you have acquired. Don’t bother to answer.”
What are you talking about?
Olavi January 14, 2010, 11:27 am
Amanda, this will be my last post.
I declare you as winner over me in any question (no questions asked). I will be guilty in any crime you find suitable. Happy shiny day.
auctionwatcher January 14, 2010, 11:31 am
I am now answering your last question:
"Oh, almost forgot to ask. Are you that Amanda Lee who has convictions for theft and forgery?"
No I am not that Amanda Lee.
However,
I may be one of these Amanda Lee's:
The Most Brilliant Pinup girl: http://www.jitterbugdoll.com/
Playboy Model: No Link Provided
A talented young singer-songwriter http://www.amandaleemusic.com/
Sales-Manager in Shanghai, China http://www.blogged.com/profile/amandaleel
Actress: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0496797/
Of the famed Amanda Lee Golf Classic: http://www.amandaleegolfclassic.com/
Artist: http://msamandalee.com/id74.html
Gogo Dancer Extraordinaire: http://www.puretalentcelebrities.com/pure-talent-…
White Collar Criminal Defense Attorney: http://www.sgb-law.com/attorneys.php?name=Amanda+…
A fully qualified Beauty Therapist and makeup artist http://www.amandaleebeautyandmakeup.com/
Or one of the other 4,530,000 entries on Google.com,
….?
but no, I have never been convicted of theft and forgery, or any crime.
Olavi January 14, 2010, 1:48 pm
Seemingly you have next smear campaign in progress. I have kindly as you to remove this (or to be precise part of it) from your current posting as unsubstantiated and hostile. We clearly have not sold (and actually developed) any of mentioned solutions (Intelligent Investment Protector). First time you really had some “news value” in it but this time its just plain attempt to throw some mud in direction of us. Please stop unfair & hostile postings. Or are you still following simple rule of gossip: lander boldly, something always sticks. Is it somehow personal? Did we offend you any way?
I do invite you discuss openly under your real name over question and take a look to back end of any auction site developed by us to see if there is any tools or solutions built in.
auctionwatcher January 14, 2010, 2:02 pm
This is not a smear campaign. I was only posting a reader’s question (Username TRUE on the last post about PennyGrabber.com) as well as providing information that I have regarding Digitalfruit.ee. I have e-mail evidence from digitalfruit.ee,
sent from yourself writing all of what I have posted here.
If you have not developed the IIP then why did you say you had it available in Sept 2009?
Allow me to post the e-mails from you:
Reply
olavi@digitalfruit.ee to me
show details 9/2/09
Noone can warrant 100% that you will not loose any money (its business basis) but we have Intelligent Investment Protector module
to make sure it allmost never happens. Please find about it
There are couple of things I would like to point out first: we are actually not selling software or scripts but more like original and custom service which includes penny auction platform with fully featured CMS. We do not have Swoopo (or any other site) clone, but more like swoopo-kind of auction solution (also known as Scandinavian auction or pay-per-bid auction also penny auction). We do usually custom design microfunctions to client specification but there are few things which give you a certain edge over competition and help you grab more traffic.
1. Built for high load.
2. Are able to monitor connection quality and report it to back player.
3. High level SEO support (also called Dynamic SEO) built in
4. Function that noone has reallly but Digital Fruit – Dynamic (variable) timing. Countdown time will change according to reached price level.
5. Based on full featured CMS (unlimited static content)
6. High expertize in area – more than 20 auction sites built so far.
7. Original ideas, not just 1:1 rip-off Swoopo
8. Extremely well thought & professional design – covers both: visual design & software design (just take a look to our portfolio)
9. Very good UX
One important point I would like to point out is possibility to to thing in 2 ways: custom design and skinning.
Skinning is much faster but less original and cheaper.
please find my lengthy and hopefully detailed overview below. If you have any questions please let me know.
Project overview
Real time auction platform (also known as pay-per-bid-auction). The solution will be built in two main stages, as outlined below. Our auction software takes into account everything from the bidding process, to registration and buying bids. Solution comes with a full Content Management System (CMS) which means that almost all static aspects of the website can be controlled by site owner.
Design concept & usability concept
Digital Fruit creates web designs (if needed incorporating flash for additional fee) and graphic design to get best usability and impression. If you have your own concept or ideas we can develop those further to suite system needs.
Functionality
We will base the website functionality on the similar features of Swoopo (Telebid). This will include features such as:
User registration and account verification by e-mail
Buying bid packages
Bidding. Paying per bid and the price increasing by a set amount.
The time increasing by X seconds (you can change this time in the CMS) every time a bid is placed.
Time decrease after predefined level is achieved
General pages such as terms and conditions and a help section which you can edit.
Add your own pages at free will.
The ability for members to log in, update their account, purchase more bids and pay for their won auctions.
PayPal as the payment gateway by default. Additional gateways can be put in by request.
Ability to give users free bids.
Ability for users to receive free bids for registering, for winning their first auction and for buying bid packages for the first time.
Add, edit and delete articles for the latest news page.
Content Management System (CMS) possibilities
Add, edit, delete and clone auctions.
Use macros to start, stop and publish auctions
View the winning bidder and update the status of the auction – e.g. pending, running, ended and completed.
View, edit, add, delete and suspend users.
View users bidding history, purchased bid packages, add free bids to the user and refund bids for the user.
Manage the website content such as the terms & conditions and help page content.
View referrals from users.
Set the bidding packages.
Update the latest news articles and add new articles.
Manage the website categories, add, edit and delete new categories, which can be unlimited levels deep.
Edit general website settings including turning on and off various features at a click of a button.
Auction Management
New auction can be added.
Auctions are divided into live auction, closed auction, Cancelled auction and All Auction in admin.
Can view the won auctions.
All auctions can be edited, deleted and cloned.
Start date, End date and Retail values of each auction is shown.
Auction can be searched by auction name and auction id.
Reports Management
Daily Bids:
The details of the bids placed in the daily basis. Admin can choose any range of days to view the bids in those days.
Orders Management
Admin can view and edit the detail of the orders.
Transaction Management
Admin can view any payment transaction made
News Management
In this section you can manage (add, update and delete) the news to be displayed in the front end of the website.
Payment system
PayPal (included)
SMS Payment – TXT Nation
Other payment systems (Authorize.net, WorldPay, etc.) can be included for additional fee.
Suggested platform price: 3900 EUR
Extension and plug ins
Auction limitations
Price: Included
Auction winners notifications
Price: Included
The automatic bidding system
(Also known as Bidbutler) – gives the ability for users to ‘book their bids’.
Price: Included
Design options (either Skinning or Custom design)
Skinning
Price: 645 EUR
Custom design made by order
Price: 2200 EUR (custom design 1000 EUR + design implementation & coding 1200 EUR)
Dynamic (variable) timing
Countdown time will change according to reached price level
Price 475 EUR
Refer a friend section.
Members get free bids by referring a friend. Free bids will be delivered only after their first purchase.
Price 475 EUR
Automatic Bids-back
solution for last three bidders.
Price 295 EUR
Bonus auctions
auctions with two objects. After predefined bid level is reached second item is put to game.
Price 495 EUR
Simple Newsletter system.
Simplified newsletter system – allows to send out mass messages to users selected by following criteria: has registered but never logged in; has registered but has not confirmed account; has not logged in last 30 days; has not done any bidding last 30 days.
Price 332 EUR
Sales auction
If sum of bids made reaches 120% “Of worth up price” then player is automatically entitled to auction object regardless of fact if he does or does not win auction. If user is also winner of auction, then he gets just one item.
Price 495 EUR
Fixed price auction
Price 90 EUR
100% off
Price 90 EUR
Semiautomatic invoicing system:
allows (after admin confirmation) users to choose either exchange winnings to new bids or execute direct payment of item.
All winnings are saved in user account and he/she can any time print out or save invoices in PDF format.
Price 590 EUR
Intelligent Investment Protector (IIP)
Solution made for site owner protection for initial startup period where bidding level could be lower than expected. IIP tries to replicate human behaviour as closely as possible and making almost impossible to detect as bot.
There will be 2 main values for revenue control system:
1) BEP level (break-even point)
2) MAX level (Max plausible price)
There is big name pool for Internal bidders (its variable and can be changed by admin). Name pool is always compared against real users to escape situation where Internal and real users do have the same username. Name pool has no bidders amount limit.
Max level will be used to escape product price rising suspiciously high. Those products can be put on auctions again. If max level is reached and last bidder is Internal bidder then it will be winner even if BEP level is not reached.
Internal bidders are taken from central “name pool” ~15 per every auction, at least 5 of them will be replaced in every 2 hours. (time is centrally adjustable).
To simulate real user behaviour Internal bidders make occasional bids before BEP level is reached, otherwise it will look very suspicious if bids from certain users are placed only on 0 time. Real and Internal players’ bids are kept in different tables to escape value mixup.
IIP has 5 values what define how does it bid: Appearance (how often it will appear in specific auction) , Risk level (how aggressively its playing), Strategy (how often it will bid and how to follow other bidders), Stage (how often player will play in different auctions)
Price: starting from 1570 EUR
Additional bank and payment systems (payment processor) not included. Usual setup fee per one payment solution is ~350 EUR
Technical background
HTML, CSS, PHP, MySQL, AJAX, JavaScript, Flash, Flex.
Localization
Running auction platform is not limited to any language.
Until now we have experience with English, Estonian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Romanian, Russian, Bulgarian, Finnish, Swedish, Czech and Chinese language.
Process:
Designing a web site is a process consisting of seven phases:
Project Definition
Function Structure
Visual Design
General UI drafts (front page)
Final mock-ups for key pages
System setup in development server
CSS/MTL programming
System implementation
Payment Systems Implementation
SMS payment implementation (if any)
Site setup to live server
Testing
General testing
Payment system testing
Launch
Bug fix support
Suggested timeframe:
* First design drafts 1-2 weeks
* Design refining 1-2 weeks
* HTML/CSS programming and setup ~1-2 week
* Payment systems setup ~1 week
TOTAL: ~ 6 – 8 weeks
About server
General server suggestion has been:
Dedicated server, with lots of RAM; Intel Xeon DP E5430, 64 bit, 2,66Ghz, 8 MB L2 cache, Quad Core, 2x146GB SAS 3GB/s 15k, LSI RAID 1, 8GB RAM. Special note about RAM – more is better, consider 16 – 32 GB if you are in serious business.
If you are not looking for physical server and would feel comfortable with virtual cloud based solutions, then we would suggest using Amazon EC2 serveries as most cost effective scaling solution available. Also please note, that Digital Fruit does not set up server in operating system level – we assume, that server is already set up and configured as needed. If server setup is also needed, then it can be done by separate request. Still we would suggest having own system administrator in case of emergencies or just for server support.
If more processing power is needed then system can be scaled by request. For scaling solution we also would suggest Amazone EC2 based services (http://www.scalr.net/). There are many scalable solutions out there but not all of them are suitable for live auction platform.
Warranty information
Software warranty
All of our standard custom development contracts have a 120 day Software Warranty included in the contract. The Software Warranty only covers malfunctioning pre-defined, pre-existing features in the software. That means it includes changing a typo in a form controlled by PHP for example, or a wrong color or graphics in a page somewhere. It does not include adding or refining additional functionality not in the application when it is considered completed.
Bug Fixes / Security Updates
We supply fixes to bugs and security issues once we are notified of their existence free of charge. A security patch is a piece of code submitted to fix a previously undiscovered security hole in the underlying PHP system, NOT in the custom code constituting the “front-end of the website”.
Digital Fruit provides a 120 day warranty on all custom code and web development deliverables. Warranty begins immediately upon the agreed project completion date. This warranty on service confers the same rights and entitlement to the client for service as the Business Hour Phone / Email Support, applying only to the project related deliverables of this particular project.
Guaranteed resolution time for critical errors or bugs found in system: 1-2 hours
Guaranteed response time for critical errors or bugs found in system: less than 1 hour
best regards
Olavi Tõnisson
——————————
–
Digital Fruit
http://www.digitalfruit.ee
Tel: +372 6613 929 (+2GMT 9:00-18:00)
GSM: +372 510 0646
Skype: olavi.tonisson
——————————-
auctionwatcher January 14, 2010, 2:04 pm
And once again:
from olavi@digitalfruit.ee
to
date Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 6:41 AM
subject Re: Swoopo Clone Cactus Info
hide details 9/4/09
Hello,
On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 01:43, — wrote:
Do u have autobidders i can set to bid against people!
Yes, its called Intelligent Investment Protector (IIP).
best regards
Olavi Tõnisson
partner
————————————————
eCommerce | web design | web solutions
Digital Fruit – http://www.digitalfruit.ee
————————————————
Office: +372 6613 929 (+2GMT 9:00-18:00)
Mobile Office: +372 682 68 58 (+2GMT 9:00-19:00)
Mobile: +372 510 0646
Skype: olavi.tonisson
————————————————
– Show quoted text –
Olavi January 14, 2010, 2:40 pm
Wow. Bravo. Excellent backstabbing. This is after all smear campaign in progress. There is no other way to explain your endless willingness to post every time long descriptions whenever possibility presents itself. Also, if you noticed (clearly not) I suggested to speak openly under your real name. Or should I call you just with some fictional name? For example Amanda?
Also I wonder how much you really earn from promoting all those sites built buy 15 years old kids with a $150 script from telebids that evberyone knows has bots built in fromstart. I suppose you have explanation for that as well?
auctionwatcher January 14, 2010, 9:52 am
Backstabbing? You Sir, forget the purpose of this site which is an ongoing effort to expose the corruption (bot/shill bidders) in the penny auction industry (as well as educate and share news worthy info) and Google Ads helps to fund this site, the ads that I allow from sites (such as the banners here) are sites that have been tested by myself and the community). I have not attempted to smear you or post any false information regarding Digitalfruit.ee
<img src="http://www.pennyauctionwatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/digitalfruit-iip.jpg" alt="digitalfruit email" />
<img src="http://www.pennyauctionwatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/pardoo-digitalfruit1.jpg" alt="digitalfruit" />
Regards,
-Amanda
dzignr_tastz January 14, 2010, 4:10 pm
This is most definitely open discussion. Anyone can post anything they like about the topic in question… 😉
PennyGrabber January 14, 2010, 4:14 pm
Some have asked why we are requesting a startup investment of $1.7 million to start launch PennyGrabber. To answer that question is rather simple. We endeavor to offer our customers the best shopping experience, the best products, and an unprecedented level of transparency. Offering this level of service unfortunately does not come cheap. No longer will you send emails to a customer care team to only have it go un-answered for weeks. No longer will you shop on a website in which you will not receive a tracking number within 48 hours of paying for your item. No longer will you have to deal with a penny auction company who offers no toll free number, and a non-existent customer care department. No longer will you place bids, and not know exactly who you are bidding against. And no longer will you have to wait several weeks for your products to arrive after you've paid for it. We will be the one, and only penny auction e-commerce entity to offer next day air shipping. We will be the one, and only penny auction site to have a customer care team dedicated to the actual customer. In short everything you read from customers on Swoopo's Facebook Fanpage, we have designed PennyGrabber to address those very issues, and render them non-existent on PennyGrabber.com.
Now to address the speculation as to whether or not we will use bots to shill bid against our customers… I can assure we will not engage in such practices. Though we have released some information as to what our true business model will be, and the features we will offer, I can assure you none of the features listed on PennyGrabber.com will be used. Those features were posted, and left unchanged to serve as misinformation. The only correct feature reported to be offered on PennyGrabber.com is the social shopping aspect. All other features which we have yet to disclose will change both the penny auction genre, and e-commerce as a whole.
auctionwatcher January 14, 2010, 3:29 pm
First,
The most important defense is truth. I haven’t edited anything you have said.
“Pointless really. Amanda Lee (that is your real name, isn’t it?) has clearly “home field” advantage, language advantage and possibility to post/edit anything she likes on her own site. Regardless what I say, tell or show, you Amanda can show it any light you like. ”
Second,
“Also after little search in Internet I have found out your very questionable way to deal with different situation and info you have acquired. Don’t bother to answer.”
What are you talking about?
auctionwatcher January 14, 2010, 5:31 pm
It's good that you will not have shill bidders. DigitalFruit.ee in Sept. of 2009 sent those e-mails to me, admitting they offer shill bidders (even if for an extra fee, they still offered it), but it's good to know that you will not use them. We applaud you PennyGrabber for that and wish you well!
Cindy January 15, 2010, 5:56 am
I can confirm that the pennyauction.com.my is develop by digitalfruit.ee because last time around Aug-Sept 2009 saw digitalfruit portfolio page putting pennyauction.com.my. Needless to say got the IIP and that the reason I not bidding at there after consult Olavi. I got the long email like you but no need to show it and you all can easily found the backlink in alexa.com for the page after type pennyauction.com.my will show the digitalfruit.ee.
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/pennyauction.com.my and click the Sites Linking In.
Christian January 15, 2010, 5:42 am
This topic is interesting and I feel I must intervene and give my opinion as Digital Fruit is developing our website and we happen to be more than satisfied with their services.
Please note that unless you choose to assign the development from ground up to your own team of coders, which everyone knows would cost a bundle of money, what DF proposes is as close to a personalized, customized service one can find, and all for a reasonable price. Their auction platform and customized services are diverse, unique, professional and their team takes into consideration client's requirements, and most importantly, they are patient and you can take my word for it as I am not the easiest of clients.
My associates and I consider DF to be by far the best in this field, this is why we will be working with them closely in the future for the evolution and future developments to our website.
Some might consider that the pricing for their services to be higher than what is proposed elsewhere, but one has to take into account that quality has a price tag to it.
I assume pennyauctionwatch is an impartial website, this is why I find it astonishing that DF can be criticized and judged over a single feature (Intelligent Investment Protector), which is an optional feature, whilst every other feature DF has to offer for their penny auction platform is not taken into consideration nor mentioned by pennyauctionwatch, especially taking into account that these features are beneficial to the eventual user/bidder.
There are many other companies out there (simply type pennyauction software in google) who also sell penny auction platforms with their own version of the so called (Intelligent Investment Protector) and it comes mandatory with the software, hence not an option.
Why aren't all these other companies reviewed, criticized, judged, and accused like DF? Taking into account that most of the sites listed on pennyauctionwatch use the services of these many other companies, and if one is to remain impartial, then the competition must be also reviewed thoroughly. Would you not agree?
From this comparison it will be evident that nothing comes close to what DF has to offer in terms of quality of service, professionalism, and customer satisfaction when seeking the development of a penny auction website or any other website.
auctionwatcher January 15, 2010, 6:12 am
Yes, there are many other companies out there who have bot scripts and they too will continue to be exposed here.
DigitalFruit.ee, as well as the many others, should just remove the bots and stop offering this feature.
Be it optional or mandatory, it's still wrong and DigitalFruit.ee knows that or else Olavi wouldn't add that the bots were "impossible to detect" and that their IIP minimizes suspicions:
E-mail from Olavi AT Digitalfruit.ee
“Solution made for site owner protection for initial startup period where bidding level could be lower than expected. IIP tries to replicate human behaviour as closely as possible and making almost impossible to detect as bot.
&
To simulate real user behaviour Internal bidders make occasional bids before BEP level is reached, otherwise it will look very suspicious if bids from certain
users are placed only on 0 time.
Let me ask you a question, if you were a customer on a pay-per-bid site, how would you like it if they used bot bidders when you paid for each of your bids?
As for DigitalFruit.ee's professionalism, well take a look at the comments they left here and then come to your own conclusion. Olavi even went as far as to suggest that I am a convicted felon, which I am not, all I did was post the facts. Not sure what he's trying to do.
Christian January 15, 2010, 1:50 pm
I am glad you agree that there are other companies that sell bots with their software and hopefully they will be exposed also, knowing that most of the sites listed on pennyauctionwatch purchased their auction platform software from these said companies, and not from Digital Fruit.
In reply to your question if I was a customer on a pay per bid site and I knew there were bot bidders… would I continue… it really depends on many factors.
If these said bots are used sporadically on selected auctions, to cut costs, then I most probably would, however if used on all of the auctions, well then no.
Also, I would check on the winners history, to see the average sale price and also to see if the winners seem real, and if the average sale price of an auction is low or reasonable I might just bid. As I said, it depends on many factors.
The internet is a wonderful tool, yet, most of what can be found is rarely honest and is basically to scam the visitor.
In reply to your question about DF's professionalism, honestly, would you not go ballistic if you were accused by a third party for fraud, etc… ? I certainly would!
To judge a company professionalism over allegations that were made in a post, which in turn is in reply to allegations made about the said company, is not feasible, it does not make any sense really?
Professionalism is directly tied to a service rendered and not a reaction/action?
Thus, as a customer, I find the services of DF to be of high standard and yes professional as they have always responded to our requirements.
It seems that as a person you appear disappointed and disapprove the conduct of DF with regards to your comments about their use of IIP, which I understand, yet, I also understand the reaction of DF with regards to the initial allegations made by you, one should see the bigger picture.
The real companies you should be attacking are not the provider of the software, but the ones using it, hence the auction websites owners themselves as they are well aware what the feature is for.
DF, out of all the penny auction platform software providers, is the only company that offers this feature on an optional basis, independently from the auction platform package, and it does not come cheap! Its a hefty investment.
All the other companies include this feature in their overall package pricing.
This is where DF is different, and I feel by proposing this feature as an option, they are doing an effort.
I feel as a future auction website proprietor that the responsibility undeniably resides with the user/owner of the site and not the provider of the software. This is why it is the owners of these penny auction sites that should be held accountable as they have the ultimate decision on whether or not to switch on or off this feature.
Mickey The Mouse January 16, 2010, 6:20 am
This site mission to my understanding is to get better penny auctions arena, is that correct? Lots of accusations, allegations, not finally controlled facts and half true information is posted here and any visitor without real knowledge about theme can act as expert. Did anyone in this thread actually even remotely take a look whats the main question here?
To make clear and understandable to anyone: we do not sell, develop or install bots, if some third party does do it then, happy using it, its your own risk and fault. Sooner or later they will fail as using bots is Digital Fruit can not and will not take any responsibility for that. Our code is 99% open to anyone edit and add own modules after setup to server so there is no way control what happens afterwards. I have seen copy of it in Internet distributed so it would not too hard for PAW to get hands on to see if there is or is not any "speacial" code.
Since May 2008 we have turned down so many of currently respected auctions sites reviewed here who really wished to build systems with bots. I'm sure they did get it elsewhere as very often word dealbreaker is/was was used regarding this (don't ask names). There are only few serious businessman who do not seek for bots (hence, my initial offer reflected in e-mail was made really from high demand of that very feature; including yours). Rule of market is where is demand there is offer, not we created market for it market was demanding it constantly. And PAW personally dedicated to that demand so nicely, on top of that you were actually who got first (and last) offer for that.
To make some conclusion: lets suppose that we even did build and sell bots in large scale (I repeat over to make really clear to anyone, this is purely hypothetical) even then I would fail to see our fault in this as it can be clearly considered as test tool for penny auctions site before launch. I even happen to know couple of sites who have actually done testing pretty similar way (sites not built by us). In my understanding selling firearms or knives is not a crime, crime is using them to commit one. Where it gets wrong is when those systems actually get used on working sites.
I suggest taking really a look to our sites back end or even code (just ask nicely). Currently my understanding is that PAW really does not care, as this is not really a point they are attempting to prove here. In my eyes it PAW just repeats as many times as possible the same mantra over and over in hope that this will finally stick. I assure you if you repeat something long enough it will look and work accordingly. I think it was third Reich propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels who said something like that "If you tell a lie and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it". Also making clear I did not say that you lie, what I did say is that you should look really over you agenda in this question.
I suspect you do not every time you see someone who made some small mistake in past repeat it to him/her over and over to make sure that worst impression and feeling is created in any possible case. Or do you? Would you say every time you meeting that person: "Hi, you are the guy who made mistake doing …. "? Would you? Somehow I don't think you would do the same thing in real life.
I would expect at least some intelligent questions coming to me (all my credentials are published in this thread and PAW can very easily get contact) but so fare I have not asked any comments or questions. I hope that this site is in search for real information and not just making sure that half truth is published when it seems right. You know, Internet is funny thing you can say absolutely anything (extremely easy, any fool with keyboard can do it), you don't have to really prove it, it never goes away and its impossible to prove otherwise. Think about it. Or you can throw one more rock (I hope you will not).
This thread is quite similar to toilet wall (sorry for comparison but its pure truth) where anyone can write what he/she likes. Seems that no one even makes attempt to verify real source of comments. You know, its very easy to fabricate personality in any comments. PAW should closely inspect over those comments and makes sure that they come actually from sources they claim to be originated, even IP addresses can be easily faked, but what can not be faked that easily is confirmation by e-mail.
—
Mickey The Mouse
Mickey The Mouse January 16, 2010, 9:00 am
Side notes I forgot to send:
I have seen great sites go done just influenced by unsubstantiated suspicion. None has right to do that If you have suspicion you should ask for site owner for comment making sure that they understand that comment will be posted, but pointing without any evidence to pretty good sites it downright mean. Before anyone can point finger to any penny auction site she/he should really make sure that site is playing shady game. Suspicion is not enough. In real life no one from you would risk to say it under own name, just anonymous pointing. In real life there is not enough just from suspicion, in real life there are lawyers and courtrooms. I already see that this site is slowly becoming great tool of to taint completion, already doubt is laid over some really honest sites with no reason at all. But all you need is doubt.
I even would go so far as suggesting to remove this whole thread. Reason. It dedicates to nothing else than bad business and advertising. Why. Well, what is really happening is that thread actually propagates (not meaningfully) using bots, we do get much larger amount of inquiries for implementing bots and they all get that info from this very site. Soon honest enquires will diminish and search for bots will largely grow (we already saw rapid increase in September last year. Such transitions may force us soon to start developing exactly for those bots needing businessmen as others will not come any more. We already see some growth, if usual amount asking for bots is around 1/3 then now its up to 1/2. Not good. Just take a look Skye excerpt below (name is changed). And we get couple of those every day not to mention e-mails coming in.
What PAW really can do is instead of allowing post some really unsubstantiated anonymos doubts in site and giving negative approach there is great possibility to become actually really reliable and respected middleman without pressure from different interest groups ie. site owners and users. All you have to do is start offering site owners to cooperate for auditing, and giving out audit results. Its really great way to make this marketplace better.
Keep in mind that is specially important not for those having really big wallets its important for middle sector who does not have hundreds of thousands for advertising.
Excerpt from Skype
—————
[16:29:01] Jack: We already have a site… Auction site that is.. So it just needs to be better
[16:32:33] Olavi Tõnisson: what you exactly have?
[16:32:40] Jack: U have this investment protection?
[16:33:10] Olavi Tõnisson: investment protection?
[16:34:05] Jack: intelligent investment protection.. Dont worry.. I'm not trying to catch you out
[16:35:11] Olavi Tõnisson: we do not have such solution
[16:35:47] Jack: Well… We would require that
[16:36:12] Jack: we really will need the Intelligent protection
auctionwatcher January 16, 2010, 9:34 am
So Olavi, you mean to tell me and everyone reading this here, that the e-mail that was sent from your e-mail account as a response from an inquiry sent through your DigitalFruit.ee website was sent by someone else who obtained access to your e-mail account and responded that you did have this product for sale when really you did not?
auctionwatcher January 16, 2010, 10:17 am
See the screenshot of the full e-mail correspondence from Olavie: [Click Here]
Alice January 16, 2010, 10:40 am
It most definitely seems like personal vendetta,. He actually tells something very different. Seems that he actually admits making mistake. You for sure keep punching him to face over and over. Looks ugly and mean. Sorry.
auctionwatcher January 16, 2010, 10:41 am
Why is he attacking me personally, even asking if I am a convicted felon?
I am just showing the information that's all.
auctionwatcher January 16, 2010, 10:43 am
"Alice," if that is your name, I do know you're using a TOR Proxy Router to mask your IP, as it shows this 62.141.58.13 and goes to this http://62.141.58.13/ The German Privacy Foundation.
What do you have to hide?
Christian January 16, 2010, 10:22 am
I agree with Mickey the Mouse, this thread is out of context and should be removed.
Christian January 16, 2010, 11:42 am
Auctionwatcher,
I doubt Alice has anything to hide, whether she chooses to use a proxy or not is of her own choosing? Yourself, you use a pseudo no? Thus, I pose the same question to you, what do you have to hide by using a pseudo and not your real name?
I can only but concur with Alice, this thread is a personal vendetta towards DigitalFruit. It is clearly evident. This topic has completely diverted from the main question.
It is a known fact that all the other penny auction software developers on the internet sell a bots feature with their software platform, so what and who cares! At least their is diversity and software available for all budgets.
Even so, tell me… why only attack DigitalFruit? DigitalFruit proposes this bot feature as an option whereas other software developers do not and they automatically include it with their software. How can you have not noticed this.
If you want to start a jihad over companies using bots, be my guest, but at least do it right and open an official thread and point the finger to all of the companies that include bots with their auction platform software and not only a single company, hence DigitalFruit, honestly your approach is biased.
Now, and as I mentioned in a previous post, as far as I am concerned, the makers of the software are not to blame, they have the right to sell what they want, where they want, and to whom they want.
The end responsibility resides with the user/owner of the auction websites that use this feature and only they should be held accountable as they are cashing in the $$$ on the backs of users, and it is these same owners that have the ultimate decision on whether or not to switch on or off this feature.
This thread is really getting out of context… I find and for the sake of the penny auction business as a whole, it should be removed, as nothing positive is coming out of this.
auctionwatcher January 16, 2010, 2:46 pm
Christian, Why do you need to use a proxy server for your IP too?
…
Snagoo January 16, 2010, 12:42 pm
I'm a little hesitant to "throw my hat in the ring" here because I don't really know all the players… but from my initial view of JUST THIS THREAD, here's what I think:
I think there is a good point made about the fact that the developers of scripts have a reason to provide the most-requested features for their customers, who in this case happen to be Penny Auction owners, and who in this case may request any kind of script or feature. It is not up to the developer of the script to decide which code should be used or shouldn't be used, but rather to make the intentions of the actual owners become real online. It is, in fact, the Penny Auction owners who choose to use or not use any particular feature and make the ethical and business decisions.
That being said, I think all of the "support" thus far for DF's point of view has been unnecessarily critical of PAW. In fact, the personal attacks are completely unprofessional and wrong. From what I can see, PAW was attempting to bring to light concerns related to this industry, which is what this site is for, and happened to bring to light something that DF would rather stayed in the dark. Fine. But attacking the character of the PERSON running this site is completely uncalled for and as I read the entire thread, I was less and less impressed with DF, it's associates, and "customers."
I can understand the frustration, but the approach to your defense probably did more harm than good. I don't think anyone has any "vendetta" against anyone, but this particular site is intended to "watch" an industry that has many scammers, and if something seems questionable then PAW would be failing in their purpose to not make mention of it.
Just my two cents. Oh, and I don't think getting in the practice of deleting threads that make people uncomfortable is reasonable either. Instead, if you are concerned about how you look to others, then make sure everything your post comes across professionally and ethically in your response. It may be too late in this case, but that was not the fault of PAW, they didn't write those responses for you.
Best of luck to all those who are trying to provide ethical and professional services to others in this industry!
John from Snagoo
Alice January 16, 2010, 12:49 pm
You have to be kidding.
You are most definitely extremely furious lady and I'm not taking any chances here. Especially taking account my very distinctive domain name. Better safe than sorry. Don't be sissy just kick him couple of times more.
matt January 16, 2010, 1:17 pm
Pretty obvious what is going on in this thread.
Stick to your guns PAW, digital fruit is being pretty dumb defending itself here, any proper scammer wouldnt get involved. But this whole market collapsed in Estonia because of loose lips so it doesnt surprise me that they keep making things worse for themselves.
These fake posts should be treated as such PAW, trying to skewer the conversation to a defamation case is kinda funny, just stick with the facts PAW, you are on a winner.
Alice January 16, 2010, 1:41 pm
Hey, why are may posts erased all the time?
Are you kidding me? I use proxy because my very distinctive domain name would stick here out oh so well. Considering that you are furious lady PAW, then better safe than sorry.
I agree that they should not really be defending themselves here, but in different reason, they will just get beaten up regardless what they tell or show. I see that biased opinions dominate here greatly and really distinctive line is that there are no greys in between only black and white. I would not dare to call them scammers as this is exactly what they are not, scammers are all those thieving site owners. Digital fruit just got caught in the crossfire and will pay the price.
auctionwatcher January 16, 2010, 1:54 pm
Your posts were not deleted, I see them in the Spam section right now, I will approve them. ALice is using multiple proxy ips, some of which are detected as proxy and sent to spam automatically by the filter.
auctionwatcher January 16, 2010, 2:01 pm
I also see a few of the same posts that digitalfruit posted here using more than one IP address, I will not be posting or allowing proxy comments any more, some may come through but the ones that don't will stay in the spam box. Stop leaving shill comments, if you have something to say use one ID. This is a typical tactic of penny auction owners and people who have something to hide. Proxy posts will go to spam and stay there.
matt January 16, 2010, 2:07 pm
@alice
what price are they going to pay?
Jail? no
Fine? no
Loss of business?? no way. This is fucking advertising for you guys.
dzignr_tastz January 16, 2010, 2:11 pm
Just for the record… I'm posting this TWICE, in both comment threads.
In my personal opinion, BOTH the people providing the tool AND the people using it for wrongdoing should be placed under scrutiny.
So based on some of the rather generalized opinions on the subject, I assume some of you would also agree that if some computer programmer guru in Wisconson writes a basic commuinication software program to perform some rudimentary daily functions, but behind the scenes some shady Liberians contact him and financially entice him into adding the specific capability of hacking into some American government database… just because THEY eventually take it upon themselves to use the added "feature" to steal YOUR identity and social security earnings to help finance terrorism… the poor, innocent guy in Wisconson should not, in any way, be held liable for his actions (by you, the US government, or anyone else for that matter) since he actually didn't perform the dastardly deed? After all – he just programmed what they asked for, right?
Yeah, yeah. So it somewhat resembled a bad Bruce Willis flick… but I think you get the point.
Bottom line – these so-called "Intelligent Investment Protector" (man what an obvious name) features serve NO apparent purpose other than to specifically cheat unwitting bidders out of their hard-earned dollars (other than maybe creating a false sense of customer security by creating "ended" auctions before the site ever opens… but either way, it's fraud).
But wait. They're supposedly strictly for "TESTING" purposes, right? Tell you what. Create a user account (just like everyone else) with the user name of " SITE ADMIN", an email address of siteadmin@biddomain.com, an announcement on the site if you ever need to use it, and test to your little heart's content. Where's the issue with that?
Oh yeah. It's not PROFITABLE (for anyone involved)!!
Quit trying to put a wolf in sheep's clothing. It simply isn't going to work…
Christian January 16, 2010, 2:45 pm
To John from Snagoo.
PAW is not an impartial website, it is evident, you mention their role is to watch 'scammers' that are in this industry… why not.
However… and please enlighten me…. as you appear to be quite instructed… aren't those scammers, and I am referring of course to those penny auction site owners, aren't they responsible? They choose to activate and use the said feature and in doing so fraud and scam the real bidders via the use of those said bots?
I think I am right here… and I doubt you would disagree.
This is why, and it does not take a rocket scientist to understand… that DF cannot be at fault. Simply because they offer an IIP feature and it is automatically considered that all of their customers will use it…
Please note that this said 'IIP' feature is proposed solely as an option to buy, hence the term add-on, and it does not come cheap! It costs over 1500 Euros, nearly 2000 USD!!! Honestly, with such a price tag, do you really think that all of the clients DF develops auction websites for have the financial means to purchase this add-on feature? I do not think so.
Furthermore, isn't a software developer entitled to sell their product and whatever add-on feature they have to whomever, whatever and whenever they want? They are not the one's scamming the bidders… It is the end user, hence the owner of the auction website that is doing so, by activating and using the said bot feature.
Do you not think that PAW should be driving this slander campaign against these said site owners instead? I do.
The problem with PAW is that they consider that any auction website developed by DF automatically uses Bots, and automatically the said site will be shill bidding users… which is ludicrous and unfounded. For this sole reason, the route PAW has chosen to undertake by slandering continuously DF is most definitely biased and shows no signs of being impartial.
The fact that PAW does not accuse and slander other software companies as they have done with DF only corroborates my initial claim of a personal vendetta, and if you had read appropriately the other posts in this thread, you would have noticed that I am not the only one to have pointed this out.
Now… Just for your two cents.
One should read in between the lines before making ridiculous and non founded comments… It is not by trying to get on the good side of the person running this site that it is going to get you more traffic.
Tell me, if one is really that concerned about how they appear, do you not think they would try to hide their identity? Which evidently is not my case, being that I divulged my real identity in the boxes prior to leaving a comment!
Oh do I hate stupidity… especially from individuals who try to use the terms 'professionalism' and 'ethics' in a sentence and have not got the slightest iota of its real significance…
FYI: The allegations made by PAW are not 'ethical' nor 'professional' and most likely defamatory and can be subject to a lawsuit. Does that make any sense to you?
Now, if you had read my previous post appropriately, you would have understood that my suggestion to delete this thread was on the sole basis that it brings a bad image to the pennyauction market as a whole – this also includes your type of auction website.
Finally, do not forget, that I suggested to PAW to create an official section denouncing 'all' of the companies (and not only DF) that sell bots with their software or auction platform, and when doing so, they must remain as impartial as possible. Which until now has most evidently not been the case.
Christian January 16, 2010, 2:52 pm
I can reply to that, as I have nothing to hide.
You are most probably referring to the post I made yesterday. I was in Spain and the connection I was using was on a Proxy. Is that a crime??? No it is not.
If I recall… I still inputed my details no?
And today I am in Paris, and am not using a Proxy.
Your post does not make sense.
…
auctionwatcher January 16, 2010, 2:58 pm
Proxy server again? http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?t=48…
Why don't you find something better to do with your time, Estonia can't be that boring.
auctionwatcher January 16, 2010, 5:05 pm
"
PAW is not an impartial website, it is evident, you mention their role is to watch ’scammers’ that are in this industry… why not."
Who ever said PAW was impartial?
Partial to legit sites/impartial to scams.
My job is to lead people to good sites and post warnings about the dangers on scam/shill sites. If a developer is deliberately creating software to defraud people out of their hard earned money, and digitalfruit.ee is by means not the same developer offering this, there are many others: Feisty Sites/Net4Bids, Proto Penny, PhpPennyAuction, unv7.com, *AND MANY MORE* and people should be aware of this when visiting penny auction sites.
I think the next step is for me to go to Congress and try to get laws passed against developers even developing software with the intent to shill bid/defraud customers (investment protection?) out of their money.
Because, if the developers did not develop and offer this product, regardless of how many people want this feature, if they were ethical and honest they would not even offer it, if they didn't develop it then there would be less sites with shill bidders to scam people out of their money!
auctionwatcher January 16, 2010, 5:11 pm
"Finally, do not forget, that I suggested to PAW to create an official section denouncing ‘all’ of the companies (and not only DF) that sell bots with their software or auction platform, and when doing so, they must remain as impartial as possible. Which until now has most evidently not been the case."
PAW does and will continue to. However, I do blame the developer first. I didn't post anything slanderous or defamatory, only the truth.
These developers should be ashamed of themselves, it sure does seem like they are aiding and abetting a crime! And like I said, if this is not yet a crime, I will go to Congress to work on getting laws passed to protect innocent consumers.
auctionwatcher January 16, 2010, 5:13 pm
I have more evidence against other developers that will be coming soon, Net4Bids /FeistySites is another example that has been posted on here, http://www.pennyauctionwatch.com/2009/08/penny-au… (Also, look over our 400 other posts) this is NO personal vendetta.
Anyone with a conscience knows that this is NOT right, people seem to be able to do anything for money and scamming people on pay-per-bid auctions is much easier than robbing a bank, isn't it?
Christian January 16, 2010, 4:47 pm
To Auctionwatcher,
Please do not get me wrong, but I think you might be losing it… openly you can accuse anyone of anything… such an attitude is not quite professional, especially when you are supposed to be impartial.
I do not know what this link redirects to, nor what that website forum is for? To be blunt, your talking gibberish! Are you losing it or what?
If you are implying that I work for DigitalFruit, judging by the awkward manner in which you seem to gather evidence, then my poor sad friend you urgently need to seek 'professional' help.
I do not know by what means or how you gather your info, but you should seriously reconsider your methods. Trying to link me with DigitalFruit, is hilarious, and at the same time so lame.
To think that you are supposed to represent 'The Best Penny Auction News, Reviews, Directory and Watchdog Source on the Web'…. Hilarious.
Christian January 16, 2010, 4:54 pm
I'm signing off…. This thread, this site and its moderator are all out of context.
auctionwatcher January 16, 2010, 4:55 pm
Thanks for visiting, I hope Bizdi.com doesn't have bots! Good luck to you
auctionwatcher January 16, 2010, 10:09 pm
“Do you not think that PAW should be driving this slander campaign against these said site owners instead? I do.”
Yes, and I do, but never once do I start “slander campaigns.” Read the past posts.
Never once did I say that ALL of the sites developed by DF use this addon.
If Olavi was an honest and ethical man he would never offer anything like this to defraud people, he even talks about AVERTING SUSPICIONS, If there was nothing wrong with this, why does he make it seem like he knows he’s guilty?